Part 4 How does pantheism explain the problem of evil?

Good and evil are nothing more than human perceptions of positives and negatives, neither being an illusion. The Universe in its simplest form is energy of varying intensities and types, all existing in mathematical potentialities of positives and negatives. When we, as components of the Universe, deem social or natural behavior as evil it is only because it threatens our human existence in some way. To the Universe as a whole, such occurrences are merely energy shifts, since energy cannot be destroyed, thus, in a very complex way, neither can we.

Steve, you’ve contributed nothing productive by deconstructing Ron’s statements in such a way as to either overtly patronize him or otherwise infer that his opinion is too general and nondescript to be of value. If you consider yourself to be an intellectual, you should have more tact in the future, especially given the complexity of ontological theories such as these. Did you expect him to write a book on the subject and post it on the comments section of this article, or to merely give a succinct summation of his opinion and interpretation of the material?

I strongly agree with Ron’s position; evil is an inherently abstract, arbitrary, and subjective human construct inextricably linked to a value assignment defined by a linguistic construct. (All members of set ‘evil’ can be defined how? How can they be qualitatively measured? What are their distinctive categorical features? What human arbiter determines what entities qualify for this set’? If there is a divine arbiter, what knowledge do we have of him or of his value judgments?)

From an ontological and epistemological perspective, human beings can’t even define what a chair is; how are we expected to define “evil” and then go as far as to quantify it as an objective construct that somehow exists independent of human experience?

Your tummy hurting when you’re sick or someone stealing your stuff has no bearing on the internal logic of pantheistic philosophy; thinking otherwise is anthropocentric and myopic.

I think Steve you are very correct in your view of evil. In support of this I think of Dr. Ravi Zacharias’ brilliant thoughts on the subject. He rightly presents that if evil exists then there is such a thing as good. If there is good then there is a moral law by which to adjudicate between good and evil. If there is a moral law there is a moral law giver. Some may ask why must we posit a moral law giver to have a moral law? If there is no moral law giver then there cannot be a moral law. If there is no moral law than there is no such thing as good and therefore no such thing as evil. In this scenario, an individual who claims it is wrong or evil to murder is expressing an opinion. A terrorist who kills those that don’t agree with their worldview is of the opinion that it is morally right to kill for that reason. Who’s opinion in this do we use as a moral law? How can we establish what is truly right based on opinion. The only way we can establish that such things like murder, rape, etc. are wrong or evil is if people have value. The only way people have value is if it is given to them by a transcendent loving God. A God who justly establishes what is good and what is evil, a moral law. Without God in the discussion there can be no real moral law only moral relativism. This is why atheism cannot explain the existence of evil. If all we are is a product of time plus chance that somehow produced all matter and energy, then humans have no ultimate value. If we have no ultimate value than who is to say that it’s wrong to steal from another, murder, etc. If ones says that we simply need rules or laws regarding right and wrong to benefit society this assumes that a society that benefits is a good thing. But good based on what? And what would one mean by “benefit to society”? Is it good to live? What makes it good? Pleasure and hedonism? Society is filled with hedonists who in the end were the most miserable of all. In the end, atheism as a worldview is left with concluding there is no such thing as evil. If that is the case, why do so many atheists think we should get rid of belief in God? Isn’t that in itself a moral statement?

Rick,
Thank-you for you brief but detailed description of pantheism and the problem of evil. Since your version is different from other pantheistic views, I was wondering who and what is your authority upon which you base these beliefs? Did you just make it up or do you have a text upon which you base your beliefs?

Since your explanation disagrees with others they must all be wrong. For example I have a friend who disagrees with your conclusion God is both good and evil. He says evil is an illusion and doesn’t exist. God is only good. Another friend would say your distinctions between good and evil must be erased; there are no distinctions, because all is God. Since they seem to contradict your beliefs, they must be wrong. If they are wrong, then by what authority are they wrong? If they are not wrong, then how is that possible, since you all contradict each other.

When I checked a resource that gave a historical view of pantheism, without going into detail, you contradict historical pantheistic beliefs. How do you explain that?

Steve

Pavla,
Thanks for your extended reply. Here are a few thoughts:
1) I suggest you read my posts on Christianity and the problem of evil. You have a distorted view of Christianity. It was FREE WILL that was the problem in the garden and the problem today. To say the Christian worldview doesn’t support free will is a total misunderstanding.
2) You say evil is an illusion. You say you believe evil is an illusion but you don’t live as if this is true. You know deep down inside evil is real and not an illusion. This is why CS Lewis said this: “Confronted with a cancer or a slum the Pantheist can say, ‘If you could only see it from the divine point of view, you would realize that this also is God.’ The Christian replies, ‘Don’t talk damned nonsense.’ For Christianity is a fighting religion. It thinks that God made the world—that space and time, heat and cold, and all the colors and tastes, and all the animals and vegetables, are things that God ‘made out of his head’ as a man makes up a story. But it also thinks that great many things have gone wrong with the world that God made and that insists, and insists very loudly, on our putting them right again.” Plus my other story of the Hindu who thought evil was an illusion was tested by the young man and his boiling pot of water held over his head. He simply had to walk away. Why? Because in reality evil exists and nobody lives as if evil is an illusion.
3) How in the world do you know it is an illusion? What is your evidence? How do you explain the reality of innocent people getting their heads chopped off by ISIS simply because they say they are a Christian? Is that an illusion? Tell the families of the deceased that.

Again I suggest reading my posts on the Christian answer to evil. As CS Lewis says Christianity is a fighting religion and we take evil seriously and take steps to eliminate it. Since you believe it is an illusion, then when your neighbor gets cancer, you can tell her it is only in her mind; that it is an illusion. Or if you get cancer you can tell yourself the same. If you don’t take evil seriously, you cannot be a compassionate person. You will do nothing to comfort or help someone overcome their tragic “illusion.”

Steve

Lev,
How do you define “Naturalistic pantheist?

How is the naturalistic pantheistic god transcendent from evil? If god is all and all is god, isn’t evil part of god?

Steve

Lev,
Are you a believer in naturalistic pantheism? If yes, then how do you personally deal with the problem of evil? What do you tell others who are going through tragedy?

If evil is part of the universal divinity, is evil real?

Steve

Evening,

This is the first time I have come across an article/ people going directly against pantheistic prospectives. It opened up my eyes to some of the arguments on the other side that I have never been brought to my attention; so I would love to thank you for putting some of these arguments into prospective from the opposing side. Even though I know I’m going to be met with an onslaught of questions, which I’m excited and happy to answer to the best of my ability, for I am still learning and I always will be.

I am a scientific pantheist and I would love to clear this some things up about us as a community. Our pantheistic community is bound with many different ideals between each individual and culture, just as any other faith, religion, or philosophy. For example Lady Gaga is strong in her Catholic faith but is for gay marriage, the opposed view of the Catholic denomination. Some may argue that she is not actually Catholic but in her mind she is and can find ways to justify gay marriage as good in conjunction with her faith. Pantheists do the same. We are one group but there are many way of looking at an issue.

Steve your main argument is pointed at evil, one of the main questions in philosophy. Every person will have a slightly different answer to your questions you gave and that’s okay, but I’m going to explain what my current faith of scientific pantheism to you with the intertwined psychological view.

So I am a religious studies and a psychology major and I am looking at Ecopsychology for a graduate degree. I do NOT believe in a god. Sure I see the universe as a higher level than humans but proton, neurons, and electrons are not innately “good” or “evil”. These partials make up everything. Everything. Our five senses can perceive these these particles as a part of us. I’m mainly going to focus on rape and cancer for examples.

Let’s say a person violently rapes me tomorrow, the person who raped me and the act of rape it’s self, is again “evil” to most here as well. But if you jump to some other countries, rape is great if it is correctional! So a man can rape all the lesbian women he wants and it’s a fine thing to do in THIER culture. The boarder of where the line of good and evil is depends on the culture.

And yes. The people and everything around is composed of particles found in the universe. The iron that runs though our veins is the same element that is formed in the heart of a collapsing star. That’s how everything works. The pages and ink that forms the texts on the pages of the bible are also formed of particles that come from the universe. The neurons in our brain that allow humans to be able to conceptualize the world around them including their religious doctrines come from the basic principles of the star cycle. The atoms that compose everything we sense make up everything and everyone.

Cancer is evil in my culture, can kill me, but no matter can be created nor destroyed so my matter. So let give an example when it comes to what I believe:

* The cancer kills me.
* The elements that compose the cancerous tumor are in me.
* I’m planted in a natural burial, where that nutrients from my aches fertilize an apple tree to grow on top of me. This makes my atoms become apart of the tree and apples including the cancerous tumor (remember, to me, no matter can be created or destroyed)
* A deer eat the apples and I’m technically apart of the deer and so on and so forth…
* So the cancer is evil in my culture. Is the tree which has the elements of this “evil” cancer make the tree evil to you now? Is the tree now Evil since by terms the tumor is in. Is the deer now evil?

I know of no people, of many different faiths, in my life that would say this tree or deer is now evil. I know none, not saying there is not someone, but I know no one who would say that either of these two are evil.

The cancer would evil to my society because it killed me. But to me I would happy enough to cognitively know I would have cancer. I would be happy to feel sad, scared, hopeless, etc! I might be the paradox but when I’m in moments of despair, I’m recognizing that I’m despair; which in turn make me grateful to be a insignificant human. Feeling these lows are a normal part of life for humans because the way our social psychology, biological makeup, among with many other things effect us. To know I’m a tiny little insignificant piece of carbon. I find transcendence in this idea:

People have been trying to find the faith since the beginning time. There have been thousands of these confident religious and ideologies that helped formed this world as we sense it today. We must see the beauty and rarity that is out tiny world, with even tinier people that walk around and see themselves as the biggest thing there. Humans have to reflect outward and see the bigger picture. Humans have to be gracious for their consciousness in their senses of the world and the knowledge and discussions that require critical thinking and the relationships people encounter.

The faction of a dot that is our Earth is the place where millions of people of made their mark, SIGNIFICANTLY on each other and INSIGNIFICANTLY on the imaginably large universe.

Am I grateful for this conversation and the fact that I can cognitively understand it. Good and evil is seen differently in each given society (based on the basic rules given in social psychology, if you interests these rules are able to be looked up), I see no society as good or evil because each is prospective to their own, the atoms that make up the people in the societies shows me that I am made of star stuff. The stars and the universe are not God and are not innately good and evil.

So I guess in conclusion:
* Rape is evil in some cultures and good in others. So people can view rape as being good or evil because of the culture on which their brain is wired.
* America could be viewed as good or evil to different people when it comes the dominate opinion in regards to rape. But that does not make America Evil. Just as the tree that has my tumor “inside” it, it does not make the tree evil.

My faith in pantheism is about everyone being happy. I am happy. I think it’s time for philosophy to move last good and evil but to focus on how to make everyone happy based on what they want and the culture they are given. And what is happiness? Well that a discussion for a later time.

Steve, quit chastising people for what they believe and instead be educated and open minded. Be happy for other people’s forms of transience and be grateful that you are here. Just be happy and move on. Life is so short but it’s the longest thing you’ll actually do on this plant while your cognitively aware.

Best regards,

Tasha

As far i know, when pantheism is saying that something is an illusion, it’s not saying that that thing doesn’t exist or isn’t real but rather its doesn’t have any ultimate consequence. Hitler is the reason a lot of people died, suffered. Now he is dead, the people that suffered will die one day. If our current civilazation gets destroyed, all the history gets destroyed, no one will remember that these sufferings ever existed. Among trillions of planets and stars, one planet had a genocide of one of group of people of one of it’s species. Ultimately that doesn’t have any effect on the universe. The universe was, is and will go on it’s merry way. That’s what is meant when pantheism is calling something illusion. Doesn’t mean you don’t need to deal with the practical problems that you have in your practical life, practically. The picture we get from setting a singular concious, working being at the top of everything actually paints a gross picture. What it shows is that, a being existed before all else, it has complete power over everything it created but still suffrrings are allowed to exist, even if there’s a cosmic justice at the end.

God isn’t like you. Hitler, me, you, cancer, sufferings it’s just a portion of a state of this being. It’s neither good or bad to this being. Things are good or bad from our perspective, from our level of consciousness. Let me give you a hint. You’re dreaming. In your dream world you see good things and bad things. Then you wake up. What good or bad things happened to you or around you isn’t consequentially good or bad to your awakened self. But to your dream self they were. So are those good or bad things illusion or real? They are real in relation to dreaming state, inconsequential in relation to awakened self. So, according to pantheism, God’s world and our world is in different levels.

Debraj,
Wow the god of pantheism holds no judgments. Hitler can murder over 6 million Jews and God of pantheism is indifferent. Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Zedong murdered over 100 million people and your god yawns. Do you really believe this?

The lack of taking evil seriously is the reason author and brilliant thinker CS Lewis rejected pantheism. Here is a quote from Mere Christianity in his chapter Rival Conceptions of God.

“People who all believe in God can be divided according to the sort of God they believe in. There are two very different ideas on this subject. One of them is the idea that He is beyond good and evil. We humans call one thing good and another thing bad. But according to some people that is merely our human point of view. These people would say that the wiser you become the less you would want to call anything good or bad, and the more clearly you would see that everything is good in one way and bad in another and that nothing could have been different. Consequently, these people think that long before you got anywhere near the divine point of view the distinction would have disappeared altogether. We call a cancer bad, they would say, because it kills a man; but you might just as well call a successful surgeon bad because he kills a cancer. It all depends on the point of view. The other and opposite idea is that God is quite definitely ‘good’ or ‘righteous’, a God who takes sides, who loves love and hates hatred, who wants us to behave in one way and not in another. The first of these views—the one that thinks God beyond good and evil—is called Pantheism. It was held by the great Prussian philosopher Hegel and, as far as I can understand them, by the Hindus. The other view is held by Jews, Mohammedans and Christians.

And with this big difference between Pantheism and the Christian idea of God, there usually goes another. Pantheists usually believe that God, so to speak, animates the universe as you animate your body: that the universe almost is God, so that if it did not exist He would not exist either, and anything you find in the universe is a part of God. The Christian idea is quite different. They think God invented and made the universe—like a man making a picture or composing a tune. A painter is not a picture, and he does not die if his picture is destroyed. You may say, ‘He’s put a lot of himself into it,’ but you only mean that all its beauty and interest has come out of his head. His skill is not in the picture in the same way that it is in his head, or even in his hands. I expect you see how this difference between Pantheists and Christians hangs together with the other one. If you do not take the distinction between good and bad very seriously, then it is easy to say that anything you find in this world is a part of God. But of course, if you think some things are really bad, and God really good, then you cannot talk like that. You must believe that God is separate from the world and that some of the things we see in it are contrary to His will. Confronted with cancer or a slum the Pantheist can say, ‘If you could only see it from the divine point of view, you would realize that this also is God.’ The Christian replies, ‘Don’t talk damned nonsense.’* For Christianity is a fighting religion. It thinks God made the world—that space and time, heat and cold, and all the colors and tastes, and all the animals and vegetables are things that God ‘made up out of His head’ as a man makes up a story. But it also thinks that a great many things have gone wrong with the world that God made and that God insists, and insists very loudly, on our putting them right again.”

Christianity is a “fighting religion” because we believe in real evil and will do whatever is needed to right the wrong. Our good God hates evil and so does his true followers. This is why when tragedy strikes throughout the world, Christians are usually the first responders. The pantheist can shrug evil off like their god does and refuse to help people. I am puzzled why anyone would want to follow this philosophy.

Steve